Discuss the role of women in the novel Of Mice and Men. Some ideas to start with.
- What are the women in this novel like?
- What happens in this novel because of women?
- What kind of portrayal of women is Steinbeck making?
- Are women portrayed in a positive or negative light?
- Why did Steinbeck write women like this?
For full credit you must:
Respond to at least two peers’ postings on this topic. When responding to others, ask questions, share experiences, offer resources or in some other way deepen the conversation. See the rubric I attached to focus or below to see how you will be scored.
This discussion will end on: Monday 10/19 8 AM for both classes
Exemplary (10 to 9 points)
Questions — Discussion postings include thought-provoking questions designed to elicit responses from other participants.
Postings — Discussion postings clearly indicate understanding of course readings and are completed before the deadline, meet or exceed the minimum number required, and are straight to the point, clearly worded, and respond constructively to others' ideas. Responses are posted to postings/questions of other participants and enhance the class discussion.
Proficient (8 to 7 points)
Questions — Discussion postings include questions that move beyond yes or no answers, and elicit responses from other participants.
Postings — Discussion postings are timely, relevant and include some feedback about the readings and include responses to others' comments in the discussions. Meets the minimum number of postings per week.
Partially Proficient (6 to 5 points)
Questions — Discussion postings include questions that do not move beyond yes or no answers, and fail to elicit responses from other participants.
Postings — Discussion postings do not fully speak to the prompts. Posting's may address one element of a prompt, but fail to completely deal with the topic.
Incomplete (4 to 1 points)
Questions — Discussion postings include unclear questions that do not move beyond yes or no answers and/or fail to respond to classmates' postings.
Postings — Discussion postings are merely perfunctory. For example, many of the postings are "I think so too" or "I disagree" without elaboration of thinking, or there is excessive quoting from the readings without any significant supporting evidence of the topic.
Missing (0 points)
Postings — Primary response to the prompt is missing.
Posts
34 comments:
Hey Ms.O,
I think that women in this novel are kind of sad. They are there to sort of please the men but what they are feeling inside is sadness. For example, Curley's wife is sort of upset that she married a difficult and arrogant guy like Curley..so she acts like a 'hoochie'(excuse my language) because she is sort of unhappy. Also, she doesn't have a name. She is kind of behind Curley, she lies in Curley's shadow and wants to get out. I feel sorry for her, its like she doesn't have an identity.
What happens in the novel is trouble. Women like Curley's wife cause trouble because (as i said before) they want to be happy or do something else other than being Curley's wife. So they seduce other men and the problem is that the men might fall into the trap. And then they will get in trouble with Curley.
The portrayal that Steinbeck is portraying of women is simply that women in that time do not have true identity. When they were small they were probably called "Mary Jane's Daughter" or something. It is simply that they are kind of unhappy that the don't have an identity. They act like hoochies(excuse my language again) because they sort of feel sorry for temselves. Imagine Curley's wife sitting in the big house alone waiting for Curley's glove full of vaseline(eww), that's just sad. She can't get a job, no education..she is simply Curley's wife.
I think women are portrayed in a negative light. Because hardly having an identity isn't a very good thing.
I think that Steinbeck wrote women like this because he wanted to tell the truth. Maybe women in The Great Depression(in the west) were just like this. They were sad and depressed and Steinbeck just felt like he had to tell it all. He wanted to give us a real persepective of the truth.
-Carmella M.
Carmella, awesome response! Thanks for being first. Exactly what I am looking for. For full credit, check back and comment on two others. Great start, your comment is a model of excellence. I am all smiles right now!
Students, please feel free to disagree. Make good arguments by supporting your ideas with evidence from the text. See Carmella's comment for what I am looking for.
I agree a lot with Carmella. I think she's right.. The women in the novel aren't very important and mentioned that often and that also ties in with how it was during the Great Depression. I don't mean that in a negative way, but they just weren't as important as opposed to the men.
Like Carmella said, the women in the novel don't have much of an identity. Like Curley's wife, she doesn't have a name and she's always called "Curley's wife". It shows that women back then did not have the same fairness or respect as the men.
I think what happens in the book is more than just trouble. Trouble is one of the main things but i also think that it includes how the women feel. Women like Curley's wife don't really have much of a say back then and i think it also has to do with the way they act. For example, Curley's wife, she flirts with other men and seeks attention.
In my opinion, Curley's wife is just unhappy being married to Curley and maybe that is the cause of her actions.
I think Steinbeck is just stating the truth. Like i said earlier, women did not have much of a say and often that made the women feel belittled.
-Cara
Cara i totally agree with you. Its true that women weren't as important back then(or at least that is what the book is showing).Just like today people are like 'Oh girls aren't as strong as guys or as smart'. It's just those stupid little words that make women like Curley's wife unhappy or put-down to the point where she has to flirt or act like a 'hoochie' to be noticed.
-Carmella
Hey Miss. Olson & everyone else,
I agree with both of them. Women are considered low class in a way (for example Curly's wife is always known as Curly's wife and nothing else). So what Carmella said, women in that time were always tring to be noticed, so they were doing what ever they can. Is it possible that women were actualy treated that way, like what Carmella says how people say "Ha, you think you can learn math? Ha!". Thats just mean! :(.
Hi Ms. Olson! Again,
I also kind of disagree, men arn't like this on pupouse, well not all of us. Curly is mabey mean to the core were as very one else are only going under perpreshure, I hope you understand. Also she kind of diserves the silent treatment since she got the eye. So don't get mad at men in general, only the ones that deserve your anger.
Hey Ms. Olson! Again,
I have a perdiction on the novle. We all know that Lenny bet Curly, right? So Curly's wife might hear about some one breaking her man's hand making her wonder who could take down handy Curly. George get in on the rumer and warns lenny again that he should look out, but again lenny forgets and gets in truble so they have to go on the run with Cnady to the farm they wanted to set up. And no i did not read ahead. HEHEHE.
Hello,
Yeah Chris, i agree and by the way I wasn't getting mad at men I was talking about the book. I also think that Lennie will get in trouble, maybe he'll flirt with Curley's wife or something.
-Carmella M.
Hi everybody,
From what I have read in "Of Mice and Men" I think that women are protrayed as trouble and nothing more.
First of all Curley's wife doesn't even have a name and all she does is run around looking for Curley, and as Whit said "She ain't concealin' nothing. I never seen nobody like her. She got the eye goin' all the time on everybody. I bet she even gives the stable buck the eye. I don't know what the hell she wants"(51).
Curley's wife is obviously looking for attention because she's a whore and Curley married her just to get his satisfaction whenever he wants it. She probably wants to be more than Curley's toy to be manipulated. It's sad because this was the reality of things back then, women were considered inferior and had sometimes allowed men to overwhelm them physicaly and mentaly.
Another example was the jobs women have in Mice and Men. All I've noticed were whore houses "old Susy's place"(52). And "Clara's house"(52). Another sad fact that Steinbeck has stated. Being a whore may have been an ideal job for some women in the Great Depression. They attracted men easily.
And as Carmella had said, which I definitely agree on, women were potraying trouble. Why did Lennie and George get booted out of weed? After a woman had told the police she'd been raped by Lennie! And when they get to their next ranch Curley's wife confronts them with seduction. Lennie falls victim but George tries to warn him "I seen 'em poison before, but I never seen no piece of jail bait worse than her. You leave her be"(32). But Whit comes along and encourages them to come over to Susy's place at some point.
So unfortunately women are a persitant cause of trouble for the protagonists, Lennie and George. I agree with Cara and Carmella.
I don't think Steinbeck was exhibiting his personal idea of women but was stating the truth of womens position in society during those days and especially the Great Depression.
Hmmm... I hope you are all not saying what you want me to hear.
Questions:
Joseph, why did you call Curley's wife a "whore"?
Cara, How do you know that women during this time were on the bottom totem pole? I am sure I have suggested it, but you should look it up and search a bit. I do know that women in American did not get the right to vote until 1920. Crazy, huh? However, there were some strong women figures during this time. Eleanor Roosevelt, for example, was a strong figure and did a lot of work for civil rights. I would even say that the women during this time were in general, very strong. They had to struggle. Did you know that "25.4 percent of all women over the age of fourteen, worked"? The great depression changed the role of women because they had to work. To keep it real though, women were expected to do more domestic work. They had different duties and different jobs. However, getting married, even if you are woman of today, seems like a "meal ticket" for some. It's a gender role. Would you agree that women are expected to marry a man, have babies, and be a housewife? Would you agree that women are now also expected to do both, be the homemaker and hold a job?
Chris, you need to watch out for typos, I can hardly read what you are writing. It is essential that you communicate clearly. From what I do get though, you are saying that men in general are good to women and that Curley's wife deserves the type of name calling because she is flirty?
Okay, we can all agree that Curley's wife is flirty. The question is why? Ask yourself, when you see a girl flirt what is her motive? Is it to get a person's attention, to gain something, to? Sometimes I see women flirting because that is their only source of power. What do you think?
Other women to consider:
The women Lennie first grabbed.
The women their friend from back home had to go to jail for.
Susy
Clara
If these women are trouble and sexual, why? What is their motive? What did women have to endure to survive during this difficult time period?
Hey guys
Chris is totally right because Lennie alwys forgets about everything and i think that one day taht he will get in trouble with curley, and i think that Curley's wife, as you said Looloo will see them and will tall to the boss about. And they will have to run away, and their dream will run out of their nose
Hey ms Olson i creat a knew acount and i just jange yann to Yann.S
woemens are trouble and sexual because they did not have somthing else to do. And that motive them because somtimes a men will see them and when they see that che is beautifuulll!! he will marry her and he will take care of her.and i think that that is what happen will Curly and her wife
Hi Everyone!
I don't really agree with what Yaan said but I agree with Cara and Carmella, women’s back then didn't have that much rights except those couple women’s that Ms.olson talked about. In this book women’s must feel horrible because they are not even considered. They are always looked down too, and men make them feel less important then them.
The women’s in this book only cause problems; they have nothing better to do then cause trouble. For example the girl that Lennie grabbed, Lennie wasn't raping her but she almost got him in jail. Also Curley's wife, she knows that if Curley thinks that the boys are"diggin" his wife; that he will get in a fight with the boys. So she just walks around and gives boys "THE EYE".
In this book Steinbeck portrays women as bad and "looloos". Back in these old days women’s practically were like there men slaves. They didn't have names like Carmella said. like Curley's wife is only know in the book as Curley's wife.Curley's wife has nothing to do, she stays home all day and probably cooks but it's probably all women did back then.
I think women’s are portrayed in negative light in this book because all they do is cause trouble.
I think Steinbeck portrayed them like this because it was the truth. Maybe women were tired of waiting for their husbands to bring back the money so they just acted like "looloos». I think his trying to show us how really were during the Great Depression.
=)Tenimba=)
Hey Ms. Olson and Everyone Else,
Sorry about my poor spelling. Yes Ms. Olson that IS what I am saying. From what you have asked I think that her motive is to get a better man, or get her man jelouse... You see she might want her husband to be protective and show who is the boss and show his afection for her. Do you see what I am saying?
Again their motive for the prostitutes is a way to gain money, but I truthfuly have no idea why they do it. They possibly want a easy way at gaining money were they can met men. I watched a movie were there were prostitutes were they lived in the house and were fed and paid.
Chris
Hi
I wanted to add some things about what I said and want to ask a few questions. One: Why did Steinbeck give names to the prostitutes who arn't that important were he didn't give a name to Curly's wife who is more important? Two: (this is for everyone to awnser please to see what you think) why would Steinbeck set Curly's wife as a Looloo? I think that he did it to illostrate the hard ships of women and what they were like. But he set it in such a way that we had to think. Sounds weired but that's what I think.
Well what I was saying in my other posts was that women were segrigated in a sence. There were the men/wights who had the education and the work and the voting rights and ecetera, and the women/blacks were pourly educated, they had to have sluty jobs because of the poor education and then they couldn't vote because people thought they didn't understand. I think. It could possibly be that the women weren't as important in that life, in short.
I think that the reason is that women were concidered different, (ofcourse) but in a way that they had few rights like my example. I'm sorry i keep on repeating. In some countries they say you buy your wife so that is an example of few women rights.
Chris
Hi Ms.O,
In my poing of view all women do is cause trouble,and try to hide like Curley's wife.Even in Weed Lennie got accused of raping someone,which is obviously not true.My question on this though is why the women asked for trouble? Did they get something out of it?It makes no sense to me that they'd seduce men and then cause them so much trouble.
I agree with Carmella and Joseph because all the women are all portrayed as selfish women who only like to seduce men into trouble.As Carmella said,Curley's wife does seem unhappy (although you don't see it yet) because of Curley's attitude towards others.She only wants to stir up trouble because she feels,as carmella said "upset that she married a difficult and arrogant guy like Curley".The book doesn't really state womens' names except Clara and Susy which probably means that the names weren't that important back then..Otherwise Curley's wife doesn't have a name,probabaly because all the men think she is flirty and that she gives people the "eye".I agree with Tenimba becuase I also do think women were sort of slaves for men back then but Curley's wife seems only to seek for attention.I don not think this was Steinbeck's point of view,I just think this was ACTUALLY how women were in the great depression
CAMILLE
Hi Ms.Olson and everyone else,
I agree with Camile and Tenimba that all women do is cause trouble, because Curley's wife is just messing around with the other men so they can get in to touble with curley, and like Camile siad in Weed when Lennie was just feeling a women's dress because he likes feeling stuff lke rabbits, she started screaming and she also said Lennie was trying to rape her even though he wasn't.
I also agree with Cara and Carmela that women in the great depression wern't probably respected that much by men, like Curley's wife probably has a name but in the novel they still don't mension her real name, but the men only call her "Curley's wife". So i don't think thats fair that she was called "Curley's wife," for example if she was called Georgina and her husband was called curley, it is not fair that she is called "Curley's wife" and he wasn't called "Georgina's husband". So i think she hs the right to be sad for not being called her real name.
To me Curley's wife(I don't know her real name, so i have to call her that) is a real trouble maker and she gives "The Eye" to make her husband fight with the men that get attracted to her. But i think when she knows that her husband got his fist or hand damged by Lennie's hand or into a machine and got beaten up she is going to leave Curley and she wont give "The Eye" any more because she will know there is a gu stronger than her husband.
-Jad
Hey Everybody,
I was reading people's coments and i think that what happened in Weed was just a misunderstanding. The girl that had screamed rap must have been so afriad because she might have already been raped before and didn't want it to happen again.
Chris
Hi everyone,
I agree with those who said that women at that time did not have a lot of rights or power. In fact, it seems that if you were a women your only identify was if you married someone and then you would be called someone's wife, like Curley's wife. You don't even know her name, she is only known as Curely's wife. For Clara and Suzy, they have names because they have identities and power. They are not married so they are not just anyone's wife, and they run their own businesses, even though in their case it was bar-whorehouse. Ms. Olson, I think that there were strong women like Eleanor Roosevelt during this time period too, but those were the ones who had jobs or had power and an identity away from their husbands. For the poorer or less educated ones, the only identity they had was if they were married to someone.
I think that Curley's wife wants attention, so she flirts with others. I think it is also to show herself that she has some power too. From Curley she doesn't get affection and she feels powerless, but when she flirts with other men she gets attention and feels like she is pretty, and she is assured that she has some power. Sometimes I think she does it just to get Curley mad because he makes her so miserable and she wants him to feel miserable too.
I also agree with Yann because Lennie is a bit stupid and doesn't realize that she flirts with everyone for attention, he thinks it is just for him. So I do think that Lennie is going to get in trouble because of this.
HI everyone, sorrry that I'm answering so late
I agree a lot with Carmella, Cara and Chris
I think women , in the book, we're reading, are treated like they are less important than men.We noticed that curley's wife doesn't have a name so it's likely that she's less imortant.But i disagree with chris because I don't think that Curley's wife wants to do whatever she cans to be noticed, i think that she only does it (acting like a looloo)because she wants to get a man with money so she can at least live in luxury and grow her children up in a wealthy and healthy condition/place.I mean I would do the same if I lived at that time.I also have a prediction about the novel.I think that curley's wife will cause a lot of trouble because I think that she kind of likes Lennie so if George and Lennies dream will come true Curley's wife will get divorced with Curley and get together with Lennie, only if she knows that lennie crushed Georges hand though.Because Lennie will, I guess,be rich at the end and Curley's wife will take the srtronger man which is Lennie in this case and marry him. I think that there will be a happy end .
Sorry if there are any typos, i had to write this fast or otherwise I would have forgotten my ideas
i had problems with signing in . I probably have 3 accounts or so i don't know but i have trouble with the passwords
Nicolas, why do you think that every woman that doesn't have a husband is strong and powerful?
hi again,
I think that in the novel women are set like they are not important, but the questions is why. Why are they so unimportant? I mean in Germany we have a woman as our chancellor. It's not like men are better than women.
oh ya I forgot I think that Curley's wife doesn't want to live/ act this way I think that she just wants to get through life.
I think Steinbeck portrays the women very negatively because basically all the women in the book are portrayed in a bad way. For example: Curley's wife is portrayed as an unfaithful woman who is eager to find someone else. And the only other women in the novel are owning or working at a whore house. Also, I think that for now the main cause of conflict is Curley's wife. I agree with Carmella that Curley's wife is sad. I mean, it's very understandable, because in that time, women had barely any choices, and could usually not decide when or who they got married to. I also agree with Chris about his guess of what will happen next. I think that Curley's wife will find one of the workers behind the abrn or elsewhere,and decide to surprise the guy with a kiss, and that Curley will walk by and see it. And Curley being a stubborn man, will attack the man who was kissed by his wife. I think it will either be Slim or Lennie. I also agree with Carmella about the fact that Curley's wife has no identity of her own, because she has no name, she kind of shares Curley's identity, which obviously isn't a very good thing. I can also guess that Curley and his wife will get a divorce, and that Curley's wife will marry somebody else, maybe one of the workers.
Hi everybody
I want to start with the women’s role in this novel. Curly’s wife is a good looking woman. She may act like a looloo however so far she didn’t cause any trouble. She needs attention. Part of the problem is Curly and the way he acts. The girl in Weed caused trouble to Lennie and George by lying and saying that she was raped. But she was scared and in this situation Lennie was the real problem because he likes to touch nice things. As to Suzy and Clara they are managers of “houses”. We only know that Suzy is more talkative then Clara. Also Clara and Suzy need money. If there weren’t any men costumers these kind of houses wouldn’t exist.
I see that women are not portrayed very positively. However men are the real cause of the trouble.
My knowledge of John Steinbeck is that he had three wives. I also read another book of him called “Pearle”. In “Pearle” the woman character was portrayed in a positive light. The novel “Pearle” also was placed during the Great Depression.
Question: With this information do you think Steinbeck really portrayed women negatively? And why? Do you think he hates women?
I read the comments of Chris, Joseph, Carmella, Cara, Yann, Tenimba, Camille and Jad. I understand why they think women are portrayed in a negative way and that they only cause problems. The author gives this impression. However in every case the women have a reason to act like this. And I explained this in my comment.
Steinbeck loves and respects the women characters in his novels. He only thinks that they suffer because of the Great Depression.
Kaya
i think the woman is this novel are characterless, i mean you don't get to know about their emotions, for example curley's wife never shows any feelings. Also they are streotype girls they don't achieve anything, they are just there, to be a wife for example or for the guys to have fun. I dissagree with carmella i don't think that Curley's wife started to act like she acts after she married Curley. I don't think she is happy to marry Curley, but i don't think that he changed her behavior. I agree that that she stands in Curleys shadow, which shows mainly because she doesn't even have a name she is refered to as
"Curley's wife".
In the novel woman mainly cause trouble. Its pretty obivios that Curley's wife is gonna have an important part and cause trouble.
John Steinbeck is portaying woman as objects i suppose. Thats negative they don't have any rights or oppions.
i dissagree with most people I don't think that John Steinberg wrote about woman because it was like that. I think it had to do with his oppion too, he could have wrote a bit more respectfull about them and say how they felt in situations.
Rosa S.
Hey Ms. Olson and Classmates,
The women in the novel seem to be, so far, sort of lonely. I believe this because Curly and his wife are never together in the book, always looking for each other, and you wonder what curlys wife is doing all the time. Steinbeck doesnt mention what she does, he never metions that she is with the guys when there are conversations which makes me think that she has nothing to do, so she starts to flirt with the men at the ranch perhaps because curly is just too boring for her.
In the novel, problems are caused because of women. In weed, there was the girls' dress, and at the ranch i believe that soon, there will be big problems with curlys wife. By this i do not mean that all women are trouble, i just simply mean that steinbeck probably wanted to show us that women were like this in the great depression.
I think that steinbeck is portraying that the women during the great depression didnt really mean any importance to anyone, they were just like a dog, that followed its owner, doing nothing special but causing a few minor problems.
I think that women are portrayed in a negative light in this novel, but i dont think that this was true to all women in the great depression( idea given to me because of what kaya said, that he had read another book placed during the great depression and the main charachter woman was portrayed positively and i therefore agree with kaya and i think men are part of the reason for all of the problems with women), but i believe that it was quite common.
I will have to agree with the people who said that steinbeck wrote women like this because it could have been true( that women werent important to most men and that they were considered as worthless)
I also agree with rosa, that curlys wife lives in curlys shadow and she doesnt seem happy to be curlys wife, i think that she feels that she doesnt treat her well or something.
Goodnight :)
Michael
Hey Ms.O
Sorry this is kind of late. Slight mix up.
The women in this book are only a vague characters. Maybe john steinbeck wanted the women not to really have a personality or to show that back then women did have a real personality at all.
So far there three women in the book. Curley's wife,Suzy and Clara.the book only gave us an image of curley's wife not a name. Curley's wife is a hoochie mama(sorry for using bad language and you will see it in more parts) the other women run whore houses.and one of them is proper but the other is said to be dirty.
I agree with both Carmella and Cara because the women where always consired a mans second.and therefor less useful.Even today people still think that way. i am not calling John steinbeck a Sexist. but reading the book so far you can see that he is trying not to give the women a rounded character because maybe they wher never thought of as one. I am not trying be sexist but it is like men don't want women to suceed in this time . They might want them to be equal, and the women can't always make that a diffrence because they might be afraid that they will be left alone so instead of standing up for themselves they they just play along but they play along in fear.
As carmella and Cara said women never got the chance to get a role. So they wait and wait to get atleast some attention but they don't and that makes them feel like property instead of a human being.Nobody likes to be ignored, and nobody in the great Depression would have like to be a loner with no clue to what you got too do. This was the for women too seek attention and steinbeck found his way too show it.
hi everyone
i think the women in this novel regret getting marriedd to curly
and and i agree with carmella that they are sad
and that she maybe thinks that c urly doesn't like her but come on vasline in a glove
and women back then didn't have much rights
I agree with Cara, Joseph, and Carmella. I believe that women in the novel Of Mice and Men are portrayed in a negative way. I also think that women were forced to get their hands dirty to get noticed. I also think that men made it harder for women in the Great Depression. But, I don’t think many men intentionally were mean to women I think it just had became a norm to think that women were inferior. So men were taught to believe that women were inferior so they didn’t know better. The only way for women to be recognized is for them to do something that men could not do. And since all jobs that required intelligence one needed an eduction which women couldn’t get or enough money from manual labour which women couldn't do because nobody would hire them and that they were too weak. Therefor the only jobs that were left were a house wife and a whore.
My questions are:
How did people become sexist like that?
If women hated there role than why didn't that speak up?
And if women didn't speak up, then why do people look back at men and think of them poorly of them when it was the women that were actually the ones that should of stood up for them selves?
And also for the people that say if the women were to stand up for themselves then they would be abandoned I ask you this: Why were men in charge in the first place?
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